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The Youngest Known Child Separated From His Family at the U.S. Border Under Trump

He was just 4 months old when he was sent to live with a foster family as his father was detained and ultimately deported.

<i>[tense music]</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>WOMAN: Hey Buddy. Are you happy, happy?</i> <i>CAITLIN: This is Constantin Mutu.</i> <i>Five months of his life were documented</i> <i>through these images.</i> <i>At just four months old he was taken from his father</i> <i>at the United States Border, making him the youngest child</i> <i>to be separated by the Trump Administration.</i> <i>But there were thousands of children</i> <i>separated like him.</i> All right, thanks for calling back. <i>My name is Caitlin Dickerson.</i> <i>I’m a national immigration reporter</i> <i>for The New York Times. </i>And you need that to give credence to the report, right? <i>Constantin’s separation took place</i> <i>at the same time I was reporting</i> <i>on family separations at the US border.</i> <i>I’m going to tell you how my reporting helped to uncover</i> <i>one of the Trump Administration’s</i> <i>most contentious policies. [baby cooing]</i> <i>And how that policy altered one infant’s life.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>Even before Constantin was born,</i> <i>the plans that would come to upend his life</i> <i>were already in motion.</i> <i>WOMAN: The fears are growing in the face</i> <i>of President Trump’s plans to step up</i> <i>immigration law enforcement.</i> <i>CAITLIN: A new administration</i> <i>had set its sights on the southern US border</i> <i>calling the situation a threat to national security.</i> <i>JEFF SESSIONS: They are violating the law</i> <i>and they need to be prosecuted.</i> <i>CAITLIN: The number of people seeking asylum was increasing.</i> <i>That included families</i> <i>who would not ultimately qualify to stay.</i> <i>MAN: Are department of Homeland Security personnel</i> <i>gonna separate the children from their moms and dads?</i> <i>JEFF: We—we have tremendous...</i> <i>CAITLIN: So Trump officials were working on</i> <i>an aggressive plan to stop people</i> <i>from crossing the border.</i> <i>- Yes, I am considering in order to deter,</i> <i>uh, more movement along this terribly dangerous network...</i> <i>CAITLIN: One idea was to separate children</i> <i>from their families. - Exactly that.</i> <i>CAITLIN: After a backlash, the administration</i> <i>publicly retreated from the idea.</i> <i>But soon after I got a tip</i> <i>that it was still moving forward behind closed doors.</i> <i>Sources said the White House favored the policy</i> <i>and plans were being drafted to separate families,</i> <i>and to justify the separations legally.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>That was when we published</i> <i>our first story on separations.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>Meanwhile, thousands of miles</i> <i>from Washington Constantin’s family was making</i> <i>their own plans to come to the United States.</i> 276 is what we’re looking for. Vasile? - Yes. - I’m Caitlin. Hi. - Hi. <i>CAITLIN: I’d first come across</i> <i>the mention of a four-month-old baby</i> <i>in court documents.</i> <i>CAITLIN: I was struck by his age</i> <i>and quickly confirmed he was</i> <i>the youngest separated child.</i> <i>CAITLIN: So I started searching</i> <i>for him and his family.</i> <i>CAITLIN: Constantin was from Romania.</i> <i>The vast majority of people affected by this policy</i> <i>were from Central America...</i> <i>but Constantin’s experience reflects the stories</i> <i>of thousands of families, from El Salvador,</i> <i>to Mexico, to Romania.</i> <i>CAITLIN: The Mutus live at the far end of a village</i> <i>in a shared family home.</i> <i>Constantin’s parents, Vasile and Florentina,</i> <i>got married when they were teenagers.</i> <i>CAITLIN: The Mutus are Roma,</i> <i>which means they’re part of a community</i> <i>that has long faced discrimination</i> <i>in many parts of the world.</i> <i>CAITLIN: They said their children were harassed</i> <i>in school and that they struggled to find jobs</i> <i>and receive treatment when they went to the hospital.</i> <i>CAITLIN: Vasile and Florentina told me that, like many Roma,</i> <i>their families had taken odd jobs</i> <i>and often begged for money across Europe</i> <i>to support themselves.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>The Mutus knew other people in their community</i> <i>who had claimed asylum in the United States,</i> <i>so they made plans to do the same.</i> <i>CAITLIN: They decided to travel with Constantin</i> <i>and his four-year-old brother.</i> <i>Their older children would join them later.</i> <i>The flew to Mexico on February 8th, 2018,</i> <i>and boarded a bus to the US border.</i> <i>Right before they arrived, the bus accidentally left</i> <i>Florentina and their older son behind at a rest stop.</i> <i>Vasile was alone with Constantin.</i> <i>He couldn’t reach Florentina</i> <i>so he decided to cross the bridge</i> <i>into Brownsville, Texas, a legal port of entry,</i> <i>and wait for his wife.</i> <i>CAITLIN: For several hours, he waited with Constantin</i> <i>with no understanding</i> <i>of the political context he’d just walked into.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>CAITLIN: Vasile says that border patrol agents</i> <i>didn’t explain why they were taking Constantin,</i> <i>or where he was going.</i> <i>CAITLIN: After Vasile and his son were separated,</i> <i>Constantin was placed in the care of the US Government.</i> <i>At four months old, he was served this notice</i> <i>to appear before an immigration judge.</i> <i>Three days later,</i> <i>government workers flew him here</i> <i>to western Michigan.</i> <i>[tense music]</i> Do you remember the first time you heard about Constantin? - Yes, there was just a lot of surprise and skepticism. Everyone trying to figure out, like, how— who is bringing this infant, how are we going to get him here, we’ve never had a kid this young, and so that was... <i>CAITLIN: Ana Devereaux and Camila Trefftz</i> <i>work with a legal aid organization</i> <i>that typically represents kids who cross the border</i> <i>without their parents.</i> What did you guys know about family separation... <i>But in the months before Constantin arrived,</i> <i>they began to see children who had crossed with a parent,</i> <i>but then were separated.</i> - Five to seven-year-olds that were coming, um, that would tell us, “I was separated from my parent.” We were seeing it more and more consistently without really understanding what the trends were or why it was happening. <i>CAITLIN: Like a lot of these kids,</i> <i>Constantin arrived in Michigan with no information</i> <i>about where his parents were or how to contact them.</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>An entire team began to work on his case.</i> - I think the age gave all of us a sense of urgency of trying to figure out what was going on. <i>CAITLIN: Florentina decided that it wasn’t safe</i> <i>to cross the border, so she returned to Romania.</i> <i>Meanwhile, Vasile was detained in Texas.</i> <i>He had past convictions for fraud,</i> <i>one that involved robbery,</i> <i>but it’s not clear if that’s how officials</i> <i>justified separating him from Constantin.</i> <i>For nearly two weeks, Vasile and Florentina</i> <i>didn’t know where their baby was.</i> <i>CAITLIN: Vasile was provided almost no translation services</i> <i>at the detention center.</i> <i>He withdrew his asylum application</i> <i>thinking that it would help him</i> <i>get Constantin back more quickly.</i> <i>Instead, he spent the next four months in detention.</i> <i>CAITLIN: The same month that Constantin</i> <i>arrived in Michigan,</i> <i>the American Civil Liberties Union</i> <i>told me that they were about to file a lawsuit</i> <i>on behalf of a mother who had been separated</i> <i>from her seven-year-old daughter.</i> <i>This woman became known as Ms. L.</i> <i>And her lawsuit eventually became a class action</i> <i>on behalf of all separated parents.</i> And what happened after you filed the lawsuit? - So, when we filed the national class action we had Ms. L but we also had affidavits from a number of other parents describing what happened to them in vivid detail and what we were hearing was that family separation was increasing. <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>CAITLIN: Officials continued to deny</i> <i>that they were separating families.</i> <i>But then I learned of an internal government document.</i> <i>A list of separated children created to help</i> <i>find their parents within the federal system.</i> <i>A government spokesperson first denied</i> <i>the list was accurate,</i> <i>but several inside sources</i> <i>told me that it was.</i> <i>Ultimately, officials confirmed the document</i> <i>for the record...</i> <i>and we published our story.</i> <i>At that point, the list had more than 700 names.</i> <i>Lee: The first question from the judge was,</i> “Is the ‘New York Times’ report correct that there are now 700 families separated?” I think it really got the judge’s attention, because he then recognized the Ms. L situation was not a one off, it wasn’t a handful of cases, that we were looking at a potential humanitarian crisis here. - I have put in place zero-tolerance policy... <i>CAITLIN: It took another two weeks</i> <i>before then Attorney General Jeff Sessions</i> <i>made this announcement.</i> - If you cross the border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you. If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child may be separated from you as required by law. <i>CAITLIN: The country would soon find out</i> <i>what this meant.</i> <i>[tense music]</i> <i>CAITLIN: As Trump’s zero-tolerance policy</i> <i>went into effect, hundreds more children</i> <i>were funneled into government custody.</i> <i>Some went into mass shelters</i> <i>while some of the youngest and most vulnerable</i> <i>were placed in foster homes.</i> <i>Constantin was placed in the care of a Michigan family</i> <i>who after months of negotiation</i> <i>agreed to speak with us.</i> <i>[baby crying]</i> WOMAN: Oh, yeah. He would do new sounds. They only do it for a short amount of time so you want his mom to be able to hear that. - And what do you remember of the first time that you met him? - He was all bundled up and it was nighttime so, the next morning our girls wanted to see him. So they crept into his room and were like, ”[gasping] Look at him!” - And what did he... <i>For security reasons</i> <i>foster families are generally barred</i> <i>from talking to the media.</i> <i>We agreed not to reveal this family’s identity</i> <i>so they could speak about Constantin.</i> MAN: Different things go through you mind. You don’t know what his personality will be like. WOMAN: Even four-month-old babies, you have to get to know them. MAN: That looks like an earlier picture, too. WOMAN: He doesn’t have his curls yet. CAITLIN: His hair got curly at some point? WOMAN: Yeah, yeah. <i>I think for me, every time Constantin would...</i> <i>you know, like he started sitting up</i> <i>or he started to feed himself or, you know,</i> <i>when he started to really, like, interact.</i> <i>Um...</i> <i>I would always think, it breaks my heart</i> <i>that his mom is missing this moment.</i> <i>[somber music]</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>MAN: The hard part about taking care of him</i> <i>was knowing that he wasn’t being taken care of</i> <i>by the people that took such good care of him</i> <i>before he came to see us.</i> <i>WOMAN: You know, he has a loving family in...</i> <i>WOMAN: Baby!</i> <i>WOMAN: Baby!</i> <i>CAITLIN: Constantin was growing up</i> <i>with another family across the world.</i> WOMAN: Baby! - [giggling] <i>CAITLIN: And as their bond grew...</i> <i>a chaotic political moment unfolded around all of them.</i> <i>Families arriving at the border</i> <i>now faced a new directive.</i> <i>The numbers of separated children were growing.</i> <i>Parents would end up thousands of miles apart</i> <i>from their children with no way of communicating.</i> <i>CAMILA: We were trying to find parents,</i> <i>trying to contact detention facilities,</i> meeting with kids and having them sob uncontrollably in our offices. <i>SCOTT: Parents are in ICE adult detention</i> <i>trying to find their children,</i> and there’s no process for putting them back together. Nobody at ICE has the phone number of the shelter that the kids have been sent to. <i>CAITLIN: Scott Shuchart worked in the</i> <i>Department of Homeland Security Civil Rights Office</i> <i>at the time. His team was processing</i> <i>hundreds of complaints a month,</i> <i>but even they were in the dark</i> <i>about how to track these families.</i> - We were trying to sound the alarm that was happening under zero-tolerance had major legal and constitutional problems. [angry chanting] <i>MAN: Across the country, outrage is building.</i> <i>CAITLIN: That summer, family separation</i> <i>grabbed the country’s attention.</i> <i>MAN: What kind of nation puts children in cages?</i> <i>CAITLIN: Then the news organization ProPublica</i> <i>released this audio from inside</i> <i>a federal detention center.</i> <i>[children crying]</i> - Well, good afternoon. It is my pleasure to be here. <i>CAITLIN: After months of contradicting statements</i> <i>from the administration,</i> <i>Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen</i> <i>gave an official explanation.</i> So in the last three months we have seen illegal immigration on our southern border exceed 50,000 people each month, <i>and a 435% increase</i> <i>in family units entering the country illegally.</i> <i>As long illegal entry remains a criminal offense,</i> <i>DHS will not look the other way.</i> <i>CAITLIN: Illegal entry is a crime,</i> <i>but it’s a low level offense that was rarely enforced</i> <i>against asylum seekers.</i> <i>Especially families.</i> <i>The Trump Administration changed that</i> <i>by ramping up prosecutions against more people,</i> <i>including those traveling with kids.</i> <i>Children can’t be held in jails,</i> <i>so they were separated from their parents.</i> <i>But even some families who crossed the border legally</i> <i>were separated, like Vasile and Constantin.</i> REPORTER: Are you intending for parents to be separated from their children? Are you intending to send a message? - I—I find that offensive. No, because why would I ever create a policy that purposely does that? - It’s not a policy change to enforce the law. That’s been—that’s been this administration’s policy since the day we got here. - I think it was just overwhelming to people that what we were working on was a policy where people had decided that hurting children was a way to achieve a general immigration policy goal. <i>[tense music]</i> <i>CAITLIN: Then two things happened in less than a week.</i> - Well, thank you very much. We’re signing an executive order. <i>CAITLIN: In Washington, President Trump</i> <i>bowed to pressure by signing an executive order</i> <i>halting family separations.</i> <i>He tried to place the blame on Congress</i> <i>for a practice that his own administration</i> <i>had put into place.</i> <i>And in San Diego, the federal judge</i> <i>in the Ms. L lawsuit not only ruled</i> <i>that the separations were unconstitutional,</i> <i>but also that the families had to be reunited</i> <i>under tight deadlines.</i> <i>WOMAN REPORTER: Overnight, a federal judge ordering</i> <i>the government to reunite... MALE REPORTER: Families need</i> <i>to be reunited within 30 days.</i> - The legal standard is, does it shock the conscience uh, to do what the government did here, and the court held that it did. <i>CAITLIN: But this was just the beginning</i> <i>of a long process for these families.</i> WOMAN: Come on. <i>CAITLIN: Despite the court</i> <i>order to reunite families</i> <i>as quickly as possible... </i>WOMAN: Constantin. <i>CAITLIN: Government lawyers halted</i> <i>Constantin’s departure from the US.</i> <i>[tense music]</i> <i>After four months of being detained,</i> <i>Vasile was allowed to return to Romania,</i> <i>but without Constantin.</i> <i>CAITLIN: As the Mutus waited,</i> <i>so did hundreds of other families.</i> <i>REPORTER: More than 2,000 children, HHS says,</i> <i>are still separated from their parents.</i> <i>CAITLIN: These government photos</i> <i>provided some of the few glimpses</i> <i>the public had into the mass shelters</i> <i>where children were being held.</i> <i>REPORTER: We’re learning that so many of these children</i> <i>aren’t even by the border anymore.</i> <i>REPORTER: It is still not clear, though if, when, or how</i> <i>they will be reunited. CAITLIN: When the judge</i> <i>ordered the government to reunite the families,</i> <i>it became clear that there was no plan.</i> - I think that’s when everybody realized how defective the record keeping had been. Right? There was a kind of mad scramble to go through records, thousands of records, by hand to try to identify who went with whom. <i>REPORTER: There are still more than 2,000 children</i> <i>who have not been reunited.</i> <i>Some parents have already been deported.</i> <i>CAITLIN: I got a tip from an inside source</i> <i>that helped to explain why.</i> <i>In processing the separations, border agents had deleted</i> <i>identification numbers that could have been used</i> <i>to track families.</i> <i>And hundreds of parents</i> <i>had already been deported</i> <i>without their kids.</i> <i>We published this story in early July.</i> <i>LEE: And that’s when the judge said,</i> “I want to have a hearing virtually every two days for the next two weeks.” So I think the judge, to his wisdom, recognized, “I’m gonna need to stay on the government because they’re just not gonna to do it.” <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>CAITLIN: Constantin’s day of reunification</i> <i>finally came.</i> <i>He was nine months old</i> <i>and he’d spent the majority of his life</i> <i>in government custody.</i> <i>PILOT: We shortly be departing.</i> <i>Please take your seat, fasten and adjust your seatbelt.</i> <i>CAITLIN: Along with a case worker</i> <i>and two immigration officials,</i> <i>his foster mother flew him to Romania</i> <i>to return him to his parents.</i> WOMAN: I remember just, him like, nuzzling his head up under my chin. Like, I knew in the next hour he was gonna be gone. <i>WOMAN: We were by the luggage carousel</i> and all of a sudden they said, “The family is here!” And his mom was coming and so she came and I... handed her her son. WOMAN: It was really hard. Constantin was reaching for me, and I ended up hiding behind the immigration officers. So I was out of view so she could just have time with her son. But I just stood behind the immigration officers and cried. [dogs barking] <i>[upbeat music]</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>[speaking Romanian]</i> VASILE: Ahh. Ohh. <i>[speaking Romanian]</i> Bravo. [baby crying] <i>CAITLIN: The government denied our request</i> <i>for an interview or comment on Constantin’s case.</i> <i>CAITLIN: More than 2,500 families were reunited</i> <i>as a result of the Ms. L lawsuit.</i> <i>But then came a new government report</i> <i>suggesting that thousands more families</i> <i>may have been separated.</i> <i>The process of reunification for those families</i> <i>remains unclear.</i> <i>And in fact, family separations are still</i> <i>sometimes happening at the border,</i> <i>and there’s little transparency</i> <i>about how the cases of these families are being handled.</i> - What was so disturbing about this was that the scale of harm was so out of proportion to what the stated policy aims were. <i>SINGERS: ♪ If you’re very, very happy, clap your hands ♪</i> <i>[clap, clap]</i> <i>[tense music]</i> <i>WOMAN: If you met one of these children,</i> <i>if you knew their story,</i> <i>if you knew a fraction</i> <i>of what they’ve gone through,</i> <i>like, all this uproar and fighting</i> and turning all these children into numbers instead of people, that would fall away. If you—if you just knew, like, one of these kids. <i>[somber music]</i> <i>♪ ♪</i> <i>[percussive music]</i> <i>♪ ♪</i>

The Weekly

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Full Episode 3

The Youngest Known Child Separated From His Family at the U.S. Border Under Trump

Producer/Director Sweta Vohra

The youngest known child taken from his parents at the U.S.-Mexico border was a 4-month-old baby named Constantin Mutu. While he was sent to Michigan to live with a foster family, his father was sent to a detention facility and ultimately deported to Romania, uncertain when he would see his son again.

Caitlin Dickerson, an immigration correspondent for The Times, found Constantin, one of thousands of children separated under the Trump administration’s “zero-tolerance” border policy. In the latest episode of “The Weekly,” she reveals how he spent five tumultuous months away from those who loved him most.


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Are you happy, happy? This is Constantin Mutu. Five months of his life were documented through these images. At just four months old, he was taken from his father at the United States border, making him the youngest child to be separated by the Trump administration. But there were thousands of children separated like him. Hi, thanks for calling back. My name is Caitlin Dickerson. I’m a national immigration reporter for The New York Times. And you need that to give credence to the report, right? Constantin’s separation took place at the same time I was reporting on family separations at the U.S. border. I’m going to tell you how my reporting helped to uncover one of the Trump administration’s most contentious policies. and how that policy altered one infant’s life.

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CreditCredit...Andreas Burgess for The New York Times

Caitlin Dickerson is a Peabody award-winning national immigration reporter, who profiles the lives of immigrants, including those without legal status. Last year, Caitlin reported that the Trump administration was separating hundreds of migrant children from their parents. Weeks later, the administration acknowledged what was happening, calling it a “zero tolerance policy.” She can be reached at caitlin.dickerson@nytimes.com. Follow her on Twitter: @itscaitlinhd

As they watched the episode on Sunday night, Caitlin, Sweta and the episode’s associate producer Madeline Rosenberg shared their experiences reporting on Constantin’s journey, his family’s struggle in Romania and how the foster family in Michigan cared for him for five months. Send our team your questions with #TheWeeklyNYT, and join the conversation about @theweekly on Twitter and Instagram.


[Caitlin answered questions on Reddit about immigration, family separation and Constantin, the youngest known child taken from his parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. Read the transcript.]

Image
Credit...Todd Heisler/The New York Times

Constantin Mutu is 20 months old and still can’t walk on his own or talk. For weeks after he returned to Romania, he was fussy and had trouble sleeping. His mother, Florentina, asked his foster mother for advice on how to soothe Constantin, including what to feed him when he was upset.

Image
Credit...Todd Heisler/The New York Times

Vasile and Florentina Mutu received medical treatment for physical and emotional harm they say they experienced as a result of their separation from Constantin. The Mutus are pursuing a claim for damages against the United States.


  • Constantin’s parents, Vasile and Florentina Mutu, left their home in Romania with two of their five children in early 2018 for Mexico, with plans to seek asylum in the United States.

  • They lost each other in Mexico. After U.S. border agents apprehended Vasile and baby Constantin in Texas, his wife and their 4-year-old son returned to Romania from Mexico.

  • Vasile, who had a criminal record, said he was pressed to drop his request for asylum.

  • Constantin was one of thousands of children separated from their families at the border under the administration’s immigration policy. As President Trump bowed to pressure and signed an executive order haltng separations, a judge acceded to a lawsuit seeking to reunite families, paving the way for Constantin’s return to Romania.

  • Caitlin tracked Constantin’s case for “The Weekly,” going to Michigan to visit with the family charged with caring for Constantin, and traveling to Romania to see the Mutus.

Show Notes

Behind-the-scenes commentary from producer/director Sweta

Slide 1 of 4
  • Credit...Foster family of Constantin Mutu

    Caitlin first came across information about a 4-month-old baby in a federal court document, which indicated the baby’s age and the father’s status as deported. However, there was no name and no country of origin for the child. Caitlin began calling immigration lawyers and advocates, and finally confirmed that he was indeed the youngest child known to have been separated from his family. Several months later, she learned that he had been in Michigan, and contacted his pro bono legal representatives. This was how she found Constantin Mutu. 

    Credit...Foster family of Constantin Mutu
  • Follow Caitlin’s reporting on immigration policies for The Times.

  • Last year, Caitlin helped to uncover one of the Trump administration’s most contentious border policies. New data reviewed by The Times showed that more than 700 migrant children had been taken from adults claiming to be their parents at the border since October. Before then, officials declined to give data on how many families were separated, but suggested that the number was relatively low.

  • On “The Daily,” Caitlin said, “President Trump is going to continue full steam ahead to achieve his immigration goals and that if there are people, even informed career officials, who want to stand in the way of that, they’re going to be pushed out. …”

The Daily Poster

Listen to ‘The Daily’: The Brief, Controversial Tenure of Kirstjen Nielsen

As homeland security secretary, she enacted and publicly defended the family separation policy. In President Trump’s eyes, she didn’t go far enough.
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Listen to ‘The Daily’: The Brief, Controversial Tenure of Kirstjen Nielsen

Hosted by Michael Barbaro, produced by Rachel Quester, Jessica Cheung and Eric Krupke, and edited by Paige Cowett

As homeland security secretary, she enacted and publicly defended the family separation policy. In President Trump’s eyes, she didn’t go far enough.

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

Today: The secretary of homeland security was forced out of her job, even after carrying out and defending President Trump’s most restrictive immigration policies. Why that wasn’t enough.

It’s Tuesday, April 9.

Caitlin, describe what happened over the weekend.

caitlin dickerson

So on Sunday, Kirstjen Nielsen, who’s the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security — she’s the nation’s highest-ranking immigration officer — she goes to the White House for an unscheduled meeting with President Trump.

michael barbaro

Caitlin Dickerson covers immigration for The Times.

caitlin dickerson

And he, in recent weeks, has been very riled up publicly over an increasing number of people crossing the border, especially families who seek asylum who have legal protections that mean they have to be allowed into the country. So the secretary arrives at her meeting with a list of ideas for how to address this problem, and she thinks she and the president are going to come up with a way forward. But instead, a few hours later, the president sends a tweet announcing that she will be leaving her job.

archived recording 1

Breaking news here on CNN. From the White House, the secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, has resigned.

archived recording 2

President Trump made the announcement via Twitter.

archived recording 3

In a tweet, the president said, quote, “Secretary of homeland security Kirstjen Nielsen will be leaving her position, and I would like to thank her for her service.”

archived recording 4

So it appears that the president is swinging the revolving door yet again, trying to install new people in his administration to carry out his bidding.

michael barbaro

That sounds like a meeting that went very poorly for the secretary.

caitlin dickerson

Clearly, they were not able to come up with a solution that both could agree on.

michael barbaro

And by tweeting her resignation, I think what we’re politely suggesting is that he fired her.

caitlin dickerson

Fired her. Yes, exactly.

michael barbaro

So what is the history between President Trump and Secretary Nielsen?

caitlin dickerson

So Secretary Nielsen takes her job at the end of 2017. She’s replacing her former boss, John Kelly, who went to be President Trump’s chief of staff. And she takes on this role as basically the person who has to approve any new policy that’s going to be introduced along the border. And it’s at this period of time when, I think, the President is settling into his role. He’s fired up about really coming up with some hard evidence that he can point to ahead of the midterm elections, for example, and say, look, I’m keeping my campaign promises, and I’m lowering immigration really dramatically. So right away, she’s faced with aggressive ideas for how to prevent people from coming to the United States, and the first one is family separation.

michael barbaro

And what do we know about how Nielsen responds to that very controversial policy when it is first introduced to her?

caitlin dickerson

She slow-walks it. We reported in December of 2017 that a family separation policy had reached her desk for that final signature, and it took her four months to approve it, during which time she and President Trump clashed quite a bit. She had questions about the legality of it. She had questions about the practicality and how the public was going to respond. And she had just a lot of reservations about moving forward. But ultimately, she agreed, and the policy was introduced in a formal way in April.

archived recording 1

Quit separating the kids! They’re separating the children. Mr. President, don’t you have kids? Don’t you have kids, Mr. President?

archived recording 2

I don’t believe in this. This is not America. This is not our country. This is not what we should be doing.

archived recording (kirstjen nielsen)

This administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border.

archived recording

Shame on everybody that separates children and allows them to stay at the other side of the border, fearing death, and allow the secretary to come here and lie.

archived recording (kirstjen nielsen)

Calling me a liar are fighting words. I’m not a liar. We’ve never had a policy for family separation. And let’s be clear — if an American were to commit a crime anywhere in the United States, they would go to jail, and they would be separated from their family. This is not a controversial idea.

caitlin dickerson

Internally, she’s, if not resisting, she’s certainly questioning and slowing down a lot of these policies. And then, externally, to the public, she’s having to defend them and really look like the face of them, and that ends up being something that she does actually over and over again in her job.

michael barbaro

And remind us what ends up happening to the family separation policy.

caitlin dickerson

So President Trump stopped the practice himself by signing an executive order.

archived recording (donald trump)

I consider it to be a very important executive order. It’s about keeping families together.

caitlin dickerson

But it didn’t matter, because a few days later, a federal judge intervened, deemed the practice unconstitutional, and he didn’t stop there. He said that —

archived recording

Families who have been separated as a result of the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy be reunited within 30 days. The order says kids under 5 must be back with their parents within 14 days from now.

caitlin dickerson

So sort of a resounding disavowal of this policy.

michael barbaro

By the legal system.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly. And so even though she’d pushed back against it, Secretary Nielsen ends up taking the blame.

michael barbaro

So what’s another example something that she expresses internal qualms about but then goes out and defends publicly?

caitlin dickerson

So one of the next policies to be introduced was an idea to limit asylum pretty significantly so that people could only apply if they showed up at a legal port of entry — whereas beforehand, people could and did very often show up anywhere along the border, present themselves to a border agency, ask for protection, and they were ushered into this legal process. The idea was to say, you can’t do that anymore. You have to show up at a specific office, which is, of course, a pretty tall order for somebody who’s coming from Central America with maybe a cell phone, maybe not, not a whole lot of resources. They don’t always know exactly where these offices exist.

archived recording (kirstjen nielsen)

You do not need to break the law of this country by entering illegally to claim asylum. If you are seeking asylum, go to a port of entry.

caitlin dickerson

But as Nielsen pointed out to the president, it was very hard to justify, because immigration law explicitly says that you can request asylum regardless of where you enter.

michael barbaro

So again, Nielsen is saying inside the White House, hey, this might not be legal. I have reservations about it. But it nevertheless gets implemented. And as you’ve said, she’s the decider. So she signs off on it.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly. And it’s important to point out that when Nielsen pushed back against President Trump, it wasn’t a reflection of her being a liberal on immigration or having a more sympathetic view toward asylum seekers. She just happened to be the face of an entire agency full of people who work in immigration enforcement but who still made clear to her that there were going to be legal and logistical roadblocks to putting these ideas into place.

michael barbaro

And what happens to that port of entry policy that would limit the number of locations that people can apply for asylum?

caitlin dickerson

Very quickly after, it’s blocked by federal courts, and it remains that way.

archived recording

A district court ruled that the ban conflicts with immigration law.

caitlin dickerson

So this was the executive branch trying to very clearly contradict laws that were approved by the legislative branch.

archived recording

And now the Supreme Court has refused to step in to unblock the ban.

michael barbaro

So her legal reservations are well-founded. In other words, her advice to the president is correct, even if it’s ignored.

caitlin dickerson

That’s right. Her analysis is sound, because each time she is pushed back, she’s been right. And these ideas have been blocked.

michael barbaro

Do any of these policies that we’re describing — family separation, limiting the locations at which people can seek asylum — do any of them succeed in curbing the flow of migrants, even for the very short period of time that they’re in place before they are legally challenged?

caitlin dickerson

They don’t.

archived recording

New numbers show a 400 percent — 4-0-0, that is — 400 percent increase over just last year.

caitlin dickerson

Last October, we saw a record number of families seek asylum in the United States. This is after family separation is introduced. And every month since then, the numbers have gotten even higher.

archived recording

C.B.P. officials say Border Patrol agents are on pace for apprehensions and encounters with more than 100,000 migrants in March.

michael barbaro

So not only are these policies being blocked in court, for the very short bit of time that they were ever in place, they’re not doing their job of limiting the flow of migrants.

caitlin dickerson

They’re not. The numbers keep going up. And some people would argue that maybe the policies weren’t left in place for long enough to show any concrete outcome, and we can’t know that for sure. But what we do know is that these policies that Nielsen was pushing back on, saying they’re not going to work, didn’t work. And the numbers have continued to rise.

michael barbaro

And so what does that do to the president’s relationship to Nielsen? She’s in a sense being vindicated, but the problem she’s there to solve is only getting worse.

caitlin dickerson

She’s simultaneously sort of being vindicated if you look at it from a legal standpoint, but from a relationship standpoint, she’s the face, in President Trump’s eyes, of these failures.

archived recording 1

Kirstjen Nielsen appears to be on shaky ground. That’s according to a New York Times report. Nielsen told colleagues that she was close to resigning Wednesday after being berated by the president in front of the entire cabinet.

archived recording 2

Nothing sets him off more than immigration, and I’m told that meeting on Wednesday in the cabinet room was very heated, was incredibly heated. She spoke back to him about it, tried to defend herself.

caitlin dickerson

So it’s in this context of the policies that are being introduced being blocked in the courts, the number of people crossing the border rising, and Trump’s relationship with Secretary Nielsen falling apart that he comes up with his most aggressive idea yet.

archived recording

Another day, another threat from President Trump, and today, he is threatening to shut down the southern border.

caitlin dickerson

Where he wants to completely seal the border, 100 percent. Not let anybody come into the U.S.

archived recording (donald trump)

And if they don’t stop them, we’re closing the border. We’ll close it, and we’ll keep it closed for a long time. I’m not playing games.

michael barbaro

And how exactly would that work?

caitlin dickerson

Well, we shouldn’t assume that the president had any particular policy in his mind when he tweeted that he wanted to seal the border. We can assume, though, that he wasn’t talking about, for example, cargo moving back and forth or people with actual visas and permission to come into the United States, but really that he’s talking about shutting down asylum and shutting down the ability of people who don’t previously have permission to come into the United States. And the policy that we know has come closest to achieving that goal, one that’s been kicking around in Washington for some months now, would be to get rid of asylum as we know it. It would no longer allow anyone to apply for asylum in the United States. And instead, people who needed that status or wanted that status would have to stay in their home country, similar to the way that Syrian refugees apply to come to the United States — apply from home, wait many months, go through lots of vetting and background checks, and then only if they’re approved, they would be allowed to come here.

michael barbaro

And I guess, what could be a more extreme version of limiting asylum than literally telling people, you cannot come to this country and apply for asylum?

caitlin dickerson

I don’t think there is a more extreme version, because I think this idea means eliminating asylum. It goes away.

michael barbaro

And as best we understand it, what was Secretary Nielsen’s response to this idea?

caitlin dickerson

From what we know, it’s been very similar to the way she reacted to family separation, to that idea to significantly limit asylum to the ports of entry, which is that this is going to be challenged by the courts immediately. It’s going to be a huge lift to get a policy like this introduced, to work out the logistics, and all of it will be for naught, because it’ll be enjoined by the courts. And it’s that oppositional and resistant stance that she’s in when she walks into the White House for her meeting with the president.

It’s unclear who threw up their hands first or second, or whether they both did it, but what we know is that the president did not leave her with an option, that he, at least, decided this isn’t going to work. You’re out. And she was by the end of that night.

And so what that means is the homeland security secretary who oversaw some of the most controversial and aggressive immigration policies this country has ever seen — even she wasn’t aggressive enough for President Trump. And so now she’s gone, and he’s looking for a replacement who will go even further.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

So Caitlin, who is the president turning to to replace Nielsen as he looks for somebody to go further than she was willing to go?

caitlin dickerson

He’s turning to Kevin McAleenan, who’s currently the head of United States Customs and Border Protection. That’s the agency that oversees both the customs officers who you meet at the airport when you’ve gone on vacation abroad and then the Border Patrol. Those are the police, the boots on the ground along the border. And McAleenan is known as sort of a policy wonk, a really smart and reasonable guy who’s willing to work with Democrats, and somebody who served under President Obama as well. He’s got more than 10 years of experience at the agency. People know him as this reasonable guy. But when you dig a little bit deeper, McAleenan was inspired to get into homeland security work right after 9/11. And at C.B.P., especially most recently when he was overseeing this agency, it really became known as the sort of policy engine with him at the center of it coming up with ways to turn President Trump’s ideas into actual policies that could be carried out. If D.H.S. is this agency run out of Washington that’s overseeing all of this work, it was McAleenan’s staff members that were actually physically taking children away from their parents, that were physically turning asylum seekers away at the border or telling them to go elsewhere or to wait in line. So now he’s moving into this role where he’s got even more power, but I think we can expect that he’ll continue to do what he was doing before, which was take President Trump’s ideas that are sort of extreme and that aren’t necessarily encumbered by the immigration laws, norms, history, and he’ll try to translate them into something that’s practical and that can be introduced on the ground.

michael barbaro

So even though he might seem moderate at first glance, he’s actually someone who the president trusts to put these more restrictive, maybe even extreme policies into practice. And he’s been involved in doing that already. Now he’s being elevated to do it at an even higher level.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly.

michael barbaro

And I guess that all makes sense. If Nielsen is seen as too reluctant to put these policies into practice, then the president would turn to somebody who is willing to do that.

caitlin dickerson

That’s right, who is willing to try. But remember that McAleenan is going to run up against the exact same legal framework and logistical challenges that anybody else in that role is going to.

michael barbaro

Right. So if these policies are going to run into legal trouble in the courts, regardless of who is leading the agency, what does it matter, in the end, if the leader of the Department of Homeland Security is gung-ho about the President’s policies or is reluctantly saying yes, as Nielsen was?

caitlin dickerson

I think you can look at that question a couple of different ways. On one hand, you’re right that it’s not going to make a huge difference who’s sitting in the office at the head of the Homeland Security Department, because no matter what they introduce, if it violates the immigration law, they’re going to wind up in court. But another way of looking at it is family separation only existed as an official sort of policy for what, 45 days under zero tolerance? Not a very long period of time before it had to end. But still, I don’t think that very many people are going to argue that family separation was a small thing or something that didn’t affect very many people. I mean, I think it had a huge impact. So I do think that if you have a hawk running the Homeland Security Department, even when they’re sort of encumbered by the existing legal framework, they can make some pretty big changes, even if, ultimately, those changes wind up in court. I think that Kevin McAleenan has two things going for him in President Trump’s eyes. The first, like we said, is that he knows the policies and he knows the situation on the ground like the back of his hand. And the second thing is that he’s shown a willingness to follow President Trump’s lead, and so he may be the person who’s best positioned to come up with the most legal ways to achieve President Trump’s goals. And even if the policies that he comes up with don’t remain in place in the long term, they might at least exist long enough to give President Trump something to point to and show his supporters when they ask, where are you on these campaign promises? Where are you on this idea of, if not sealing the border, significantly decreasing the number of immigrants coming to the United States?

michael barbaro

So even if these policies are ultimately blocked by the courts, it feels like it’s important to this president to have someone at the Department of Homeland Security who is willing to try them, and that may be enough.

caitlin dickerson

I think in President Trump’s heart of hearts, right, he would hope that he would find not only somebody who is willing to try but somebody who is going to succeed. He wants aggressive policies to be instituted in the long term. But I think it’s better in his mind than nothing to have somebody who’s willing to try. And as we know, politically, it’s better than nothing, because then the president can point to these policies that he tried to introduce, if only it wasn’t for the courts who had blocked him, or if only it wasn’t for Congress who blocked him.

michael barbaro

Right. My intention was there. Somebody else is at fault for it not working.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly. He has at least an attempt to meet these campaign promises to point to when voters ask, why haven’t you made a significant change? So I think that having a more aggressive leader in place who’s more willing to introduce these policies, when they get stuck in the courts, it allows Trump to blame the courts rather than his own administration for getting in his way. He can say, look, I tried, but these judges are blocking me, whereas it wasn’t just the judges blocking him with Secretary Nielsen. It was her, too.

michael barbaro

If Congress is not going to change the law, and I think the assumption is that they are not going to do that anytime soon when it comes to basic immigration law, is the president right to suggest that the current system is broken, and the only way to fix it is to test these new ideas, even if they push the boundaries of the law?

caitlin dickerson

I would say yes to the first part of your question. Most people agree that the system is broken. But when it comes to fixing the problem, what are you trying to fix? In the president’s mind, the problem is the vast number of people coming here to seek asylum. His idea of a fix would decrease that number. But other people see the problem as not that people are coming here to seek asylum at all but the ways that we’re dealing with them. We don’t have space to place people physically in custody when they enter. We don’t have judges to hear their cases for years and years. So if you see that as the problem, then —

michael barbaro

He’s not really addressing those.

caitlin dickerson

He’s not addressing those problems, and I think that’s because a lot of people who agree with the president are concerned that if we come up with better systems for processing asylum seekers — we make it more organized and efficient and, in some cases, comfortable — that all that will do is encourage more and more people to come. And again, if the numbers themselves are what you see as the problem, then making the system better only makes it worse.

michael barbaro

Caitlin, what does all of this tell us about where President Trump plans to go on immigration?

caitlin dickerson

I think it shows that President Trump is going to continue full steam ahead to achieve his immigration goals and that if there are people, even informed career officials, who want to stand in the way of that, they’re going to be pushed out, because he’s very committed to the goal of limiting the number of people who come to the border, regardless of the many legal challenges he’s already faced, those that are sure to come, the public reaction, all these other things notwithstanding. We’re not seeing any signs of slowing down. I think this week is actually an indicator of a ramping up of these goals.

michael barbaro

In other words, the gloves are coming off, even though, in a lot of people’s minds, they thought the gloves were already off.

caitlin dickerson

That’s right. It’s like another set of gloves are coming off.

michael barbaro

Caitlin, thank you very much.

caitlin dickerson

Thank you.

michael barbaro

On Monday, The Times reported that President Trump plans to push out more officials from the Department of Homeland Security, including the department’s general counsel and the director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, as he seeks to carry out his harder-line approach to immigration. A few hours later, in the latest legal setback to that approach, a federal judge blocked a Trump administration policy that required those seeking asylum to wait in Mexico rather than in the U.S. while their cases made their way through U.S. immigration court. The judge found that the policy violated federal law.

Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (mike pompeo)

Today, the United States is continuing to build its maximum pressure campaign against the Iranian regime. I am announcing our intent to designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, including its Quds Force, as a foreign terrorist organization in accordance with Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

michael barbaro

On Monday, the Trump administration said that it was designating a powerful arm of the Iranian military as a foreign terrorist organization, the first time that the U.S. has classified part of any country’s government as such a threat.

archived recording (mike pompeo)

We’re doing it because the Iranian regime’s use of terrorism as a tool of statecraft makes it fundamentally different from any other government.

michael barbaro

The move was debated at the highest levels of the administration, with top officials at the Defense Department and the C.I.A. opposing the designation, arguing it could justify Iranian attacks against the U.S. and its allies. But the president’s national security adviser, John Bolton, and his secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, advocated for the decision, arguing the designation would further isolate Iran by discouraging businesses from working with its military.

archived recording (mike pompeo)

This historic step will deprive the world’s leading state sponsor of terror the financial means to spread misery and death around the world.

michael barbaro

In response, Iran’s government said it was designating the U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in the Middle East, as a terrorist organization as well.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

Senior Story Editors: Dan Barry, Liz O. Baylen, and Liz Day
Director of Photography: Andreas Burgess
Video Editor: Pierre Takal
Associate Producer: Madeline Rosenberg

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